I love critiques...especially ones read by scifi (hence, Mark Brand) readers who think they know a good story - what a story should be - entertaining. Here you have a wannabe Gardner Dozios.

I'm surprised Mark Brand had something decent to say about The Empty Planet (that was actually my FIRST science fiction story ever written in 1996 and submitted and accepted). I look back at that one now and laugh.

It's kind of funny, my mentor is KURT VONNEGUT - I know him well, have had coffee with him and been to his lectures...HE taught me a lot. HE showed me the way. Yes, Kurt Vonnegut.

Mark disliked "Let's Play God" - Amazing! It's already been accepted for 2007 in a Semi-Pro for $150.00 - Hello! It's a tale of cybernetic conditioning on a Human's Brain in a Lab Setting!!! If you're so experienced at reading sci-fi, how could you overlook that?

He dislikes my work - my 4th Novel due out in early 2006, ALLEGIANCE TO ARMS, a Western, I have book signings for in the midwest...and POSSIBLE movie rights.

I have won Semi-Pro Anthologies, and even this writer of 9 going on 10 years
started with the old stapled fanzines like everyone else...the pulps...and with a Trade School Education in Creative Writing & Journalism.......AMAZING, I have an invitation to NYU for a Master's Degree in the Science of Publishing (should I attend).

Listen, Mark - you got to chill out...stop reading mainstreamers like Dan Brown and Stephen King. I much prefer 'War and Peace' or 'Anna Karenina' to any of the authors mentioned above. Get more into the Semi-Pros, like myself, then knock on my door. Or the classics.

You think you could write better - choose the genre, location, character type - give me 4 to 6 weeks of honing and crafting..........I bet my story outdoes YOURS......

Sincerely,
-Lawrence R. Dagstine

__________________
[resurrender.net]:[an end]

posted for lawrence dagstine, who doesn't have an illout account.

__________________
[resurrender.net]:[an end]

Lawrence here. Thanks Paul. I am finally up.

If Mark is interested in that short story showdown -- (just for fun, I think it will bring in a lot of votes between the two of us and droving audiences) -- here is what I have planned...a story between 5,000 and 7,000 words...and written in the "first" person perspective from a female protagonist.

An undead tale...(for me)...but "not" your typical zombies. This story will be told by a nurse, have hints of a devastating hurricane like Katrina, the War in Iraq, Weather Manipulation, and Government/Military conspiracy right here in the heart of the US of A........with HEAVY sci-fi elements. Not really horror, just what's left in the wake of the hurricane is horror really.

I will start on it tomorrow.
-Lawrence R. Dagstine

Wow, sounds like a real War of the Words is brewing.

First I would like to say congrats to Lawrence for his achievements.
But to play devil's advocate, just because one has studied writing and published does not mean one is necessarily a fantastic writer, nor does reading the classics mean you are going to be a better writer, either.
And criticism is always going to come at you. Being a published author, or winning awards is not going to stop that. Not every story you write is going to be a winner to everyone who reads it or every editor whose desk it passes across.

Mark Brand's negative criticisms are just as valid as the positive comments you would receive from a critic who liked your work. Maybe Mark went a bit overboard, maybe not. But postering and bragging and attacking...well....seems a bit babyish and....Well, defend yourself by all means, but...I don't know....not the way you did.
There will always be people who don't like your work. Accept it, it comes with the job.


So I think we all need to chill, cut the postering, and approach criticism from a better angle.

Just my humble opinion.


Rafala

And this comes from a guy--me--who has been a finalist for a few awards, including the Writers of the Future, and won one award. I currently learn and refine my craft from such distinguished editors as Paul Brazier, formerly of Interzone magazine, as well as take advice from the great scif-guru, Harry Harrison.

The best piece of advice given to me by my mentors is this: not every story you write is good, no matter how experienced you happen to be, nor does it mean you should posture yourself at every person who launches a negative criticism your way.

By the way, I LOVED your story, Lawrence. (But if I were to critique it--and every story, even a good one, has some points of contention--would you lob a fireball at me, I wonder???)
I like your approach and your take on writing, but please--in your own words--chill out, and come down to earth, my friend.

__________________
Some people should die. That's just unconscious knowledge.

No, trust me...it wasn't so much the review. I'm surprised he had something good to say about The Empty Planet (that was from 1996 - my FIRST short story out of journalism school EVER. First story submitted).

What kind of ticked me off was how he disliked and "couldn't understand" the story Let's Play God, which magazines have found appraising and to be a very effective nightmare - (and it could happen to us humans down the road) but not to understand it. So it was more Let's Play God, really.

Trust me, critiques don't discourage me. Back in the 90s I used to have over a thousand rejection letters (usually writers are supposed to hold onto them) but I eventually only kept the ones "with" actual critiques and feedback.

Kurt showed me the whole process of putting your work in a drawer for three weeks then going back to it, etc etc.

Nowadays, I guess since over the years you get better at your craft, build a name for yourself, if I send out...um, let's say ten simultaneous submissions, six out of those ten will accept it/purchase it...before 2000-2001 now was a whole other ballgame. Man, the postage spent...

SirLawrence

Oh, be sure to check out my Old Personal Homepage. It's a Doctor Who fan site, too. And James Bond. Hasn't been updated since 2002 (I lost the darn Dreamweaver program)...but cool art, cool science fiction of old, and Doctor Who, of course.

THE VORPAL SWORD
http://members.tripod.com/vorpalsword

I see, I see. Thanks Lawrence.

I'm sure Mark meant no harm. And having read your response to my post, I am sure you didin't, either. My only problem with this whole internet thing is the ability for the real meaning of things to get lost. So many times one can misread things. It's hard to establish context as a reader of posts and blogs, as you cannot see the other person's expressions or body language.

Like the Doctor Who stuff. I am a Tom Baker/Peter Davidson man.
But I like the new doctor, too.

Rafala

__________________
Some people should die. That's just unconscious knowledge.

i remember our verbal warfare with good old pazmar not unfondly. i wonder what that no-talent ass clown is up to these days. movie deals? overthrowing central american countries?

__________________
[resurrender.net]:[an end]

Probably getting every form of sexually transmitted disease under the sun from hanging out in all those Mex-Tex border bars he used to brag about. Because, hey, he's a tough guy, and you're not a man until you get gonorrea.

Rafala

It seems he's stopped putting out books, at least for the time being.

__________________
Some people should die. That's just unconscious knowledge.

That was actually one of the reasons I broke up with an EX of mine. Instant Messenger destroyed the relationship. We kept having "misinterpretations" over a little square box called AIM (lol) on a manmade machine. No serious interaction.

Very stupid way to end a relationship...after that, the phone convos went next. I knew to dump the whole AIM game after that. Just like you said, you can't read the other person's body langauge, eyes, see what they're thinking through observation of suggestion.

A lot of this IMing technology is doing that to people and society nowadays, isolating us. Shame. Imagine in 40 years from now - sad

Thank you Carl. Lawrence needn't defend himself at all, as I wasn't attacking him. A litarary review is not a personal attack, but merely an impression of one specific piece of work. In Lawrence's case, I had so little to say about his pieces that I grouped a number of them together. I would also like to clarify that I was not getting into the particulars of why I disliked or misunderstood them because I trusted that there was something to them that couldn't be measured by my read-through. It's entirely possible that a story like "Let's Play God" is obscurely brilliant in the same way that some people swear by other vexing and inorganic works (interestingly enough, Kurt Vonnegut comes to mind here). I like to think I gave him the benefit of the doubt with his grammar, dialogue, and story structure, in good faith that beneath it there was something special. All I was trying to point out is that if there is, I don't see it. I think Lawrence's presence in the Silverthought community is a valuable one, and I will continue to read his pieces out of sheer curiosity. Like I mentioned in my review, I want to like his work, if only because I feel like I am the only person who doesn't. I feel similarly toward the band Coldplay. Everyone in the world seems bonkers about Coldplay these days, but no matter how many times I give XY a second, third, tenth listen-through it still rings false somehow. But, like Carl said, mine is only one review, and in the big scheme of things you're bound to come across someone who doesn't care for your writing.

As much as I might like to take you up on your little competition (as it happened I am a medical assistant-very much like a nurse-by trade, and I just lived through a six-day flooded island vacation in the middle of a tropical storm) I am at the moment starting my own business and trying to simultaneously finish my portion of the Night Blind project and keep the review section of this page moving along. I have quite enough on my plate right now. Besides, I think Silverthought deserves a bit more dignity than a literary treatment of "You Got Served". That sort of thinking is what hobbles the science fiction community to begin with.

I would, however, like to take the opportunity to encourage everyone to write reviews of their own.

__________________
I think my spaceship knows which way to go...
www.vinniethevole.com

Like I said, it wasn't Empty Planet at all. Some times it takes a few re-reads of a certain story. A lot of times it takes a rewrite, but the reviewer should also "recommend" a rewrite in his critique.

To me, what a critique is, and which I would have rather been served, and I know you meant no harm by it...is let's say:

"Hi, this is Mark Brand this month and I am currently reviewing such and such a story by Lawrence R. Dagstine. While I enjoyed the theme to this story, I felt Lawrence had an excellent approach but the story should be lengthened to such and such words, these certain paragraphs were unnecessary, and with a very consistent rewrite of the dialogue and plot formulas I described, as the reviewer, this month...I think Dagstine could have a better story well worth the second read. If Dagstine added the element of this and that, I'd be impressed as well. So Mr. Dagstine, in my opinion, as a reviewer, can you possibly work out the depth, the conflict, stick with the motive obviously, as I would like a second read at this in due time as it is technically correct."

That is just an example above...just the kind of honest critique if I were an editor I would give. No harm down.

Those are usually the critiques I received in the past which, inevitably, made me do the rewrite and either shorten it or lengthen it and remove some very unnecessary elements. Then the second time around the story was better. I feel sorry for DJ. But just out of curiosity, why did you compare his story to a video game (or that it should be made into one)?

P.S.: as a small note...I welcome all feedback on my stories. Rating it or whatever. "Constructive Criticism".

Take Crossing Cassini, for example, which I am sure you will read in the near future. The Saturnian tale of the mysterious space dust and the old Cassini Space Probe's benefits (as it takes place in the future). Here was a story I started working on in 2000. I was asked to do such and such "constructive" rewrites by certain editors. I did those rewrites, with the freshest and most original approach (to avoid rehashed cliches - a terrible thing in sci-fi culture nowadays) and by the third rewrite I struck the "right" editor. Got $10.00 for it on my third rewrite, by 2001, and it ended up being my first "paid for" sci-fi short story. However, the constructive critiques helped a lot from 2000, and I don't think without it, I would even have gotten that ten bucks for it.

But with literature it's a like or dislike situation. One person might like Arthur C. Clarke or A.E. Van Vogt, while another considers himself a Harlan Ellison man and would never pick up a Van Vogt pulp paperback. Different tastes and diffrent strokes for different folks. Anyway, my aim, I hope I am at least making people "think" of the possibilities in my science fiction on this site, at the same time keeping them entertained with a tale that makes them want to scroll down and find out more, and say to themselves afterwards in some of them - "Well, what if?" As more and more science fiction is becoming fact by the day, with the growth in technology and such.

Sooo I hope more people will "review" my OWN fiction and let me know what they would like changed, what they would like kept, or what they would like to see.

Cheers,
-SirLawrence

I think your attitude about the process of review is a fair one. If you re-read the original text of the review that I gave you at first you'll see that there was a lot of conflict about how I felt. My review was by no means a decisive one (as in DJ's case), and I felt a sort of inner conflict that comes from exactly the sort of situation you described. Literature is a like/dislike game. From your point of view, that boils down to a situation where you plug your story and the available markets into an equation and wait for the odds to "hit" the right editor at the right time. This is a perfectly valid approach to writing as a craft, and I did not mean to imply otherwise. Which is why I sort of took both sides of my own argument by saying that your writing is technically very good. It was that other intangible something that I was calling out on the carpet. I agree with you 100% that when I write something the best thing someone could say about it was that they couldn't stop until they had read it all.

I think people naturally gravitate toward good fiction, even if they have little or no instruction in the finer points of grammar, narrative, characterization, plot, and story structure. If some random stranger reads something I've written and says "I couldn't put it down," that's about the best compliment I feel like I can get. Unfortunately, as I was reading Let's Play God and Programmed To Kill, I felt my attention wandering, and at a few points I felt like I wanted to stop and read something else. As I mentioned above, I dealt with some of my own inner conflict here because I felt like it was just that I wasn't getting it and not that the story wasn't good. Which is why I likened it to Coldplay and Kurt Vonnegut and Dr. Who and beef chili. These are things that other people love, but I just cannot seem to genuinely like.

As to your suggestion about reviewing stories, I am part of a message board called www.enterthemuse.com where for several years I have participated in the sort of community that you are describing. Writers post their new shorts or chapters or poems or other pieces and get immediate feedback from other authors in the form of line-by-lines or in-depth critiques. Then with that knowledge, they edit and repost. And so on and so forth. I think there is definately a huge need for sites that can provide this sort of think-tank atmosphere to a growing generation of writers. I felt that it definately offered a way to find out what the obvious holes in my writing were and plug them before putting the stories before the less-forgiving general audience. However, I also always felt vaguely that by attempting to critique line-by-line, paragraph by paragraph, I would be (in effect) doing your work for you. And more than that, what you would have in the end was a story that had been put through the filter of another author and distorted so it lacked the very nuances that made it your own. I'm willing to point out what I would have done differently, but I'm not entirely comfortable with the larger implications of this.

That having been said, Silverthought.com (and this is strictly me talking here, not necessarily representing the views of the Management) is really more a place for polished, best-effort fiction. More than a critique-circle or workshop, it is a showcase for work that has already undergone rewrites, editing, and ideally, peer-reviewing. I am not sure that this is exactly what Paul has in mind for our community here, and he may very well intend to offer workshop-like critique for authors on Silverthought, but I know for a fact that he dislikes half-assed and unfinished work.

This is not as much directed at Lawrence, because I know he understands this already, but I would suggest that before posting stories here, everyone make a concerted effort to follow the general conventions of re-reading and re-writing your stories as many times as necessary to assure your best effort at producing solid end product. After all, Paul is ponying up his own cash for this project and offering to publish what you write in a legitimate small press anthology. Even if you have never been peer-reviewed before, you most certainly will be once this book comes out. And remember that although the rush of getting published is a heady one, ultimately in ten years you will have to leaf through this book and confront what it is you have written. Do yourselves a favor and make it your very best effort.

__________________
I think my spaceship knows which way to go...
www.vinniethevole.com

Do we all get to submit headshots?

Only if you make Silverthought's Class of 2005.

(in the event, I have my graduation gear ready).

Hey Lawrence, send me your email, I tried sending you something in a private message, but it was limited to 2000 characters. I'm at mark@vinniethevole.com. The sooner the better.

__________________
I think my spaceship knows which way to go...
www.vinniethevole.com

He just wants to show off his mugshot from a Mexican jail with the placard that says 94837-9 "Taking Liberties with Roosters".

__________________
I think my spaceship knows which way to go...
www.vinniethevole.com

Actually, Lawrence, send it to mark_r_brand@hotmail.com, for some reason my other address isn't working at the moment.

__________________
I think my spaceship knows which way to go...
www.vinniethevole.com

I'm not sure if it came from one of the viewers/readers here or not...but for the person who emailed me at my yahoo address (just in case; the one which you either got from another online mag, my homepage, or my art webzine...)

Your email: "Hah! Steampunk. Can you do it?"

My reply: Yes, it's been a while...probably can. If I have the time, the right pre-Victorian backdrop, some interesting Dickens-like characters, and "lucid" technology involved - yes, I can execute it. I'd throw in a dark slant maybe as well, something edgy, gritty.

(as a small note, Steampunk will take me though the longest out of any of the genres associated with SF).

-SirLawrence

My bad. Not "associated" above. Affiliated.

coldplay is gay.

__________________
end message

teh ghey

__________________
I think my spaceship knows which way to go...
www.vinniethevole.com

Tequila, anyone? I'm parched.

Testing, Testing...1, 2, 3...

Trying to get my signature pic up in the left-hand corner. Hope it works.

Negative ghost rider... (pattern is full)

__________________
I think my spaceship knows which way to go...
www.vinniethevole.com

Hey Mark...Got a Thrifty little 4,700-worder headed your way...would like your review on it in a future update. Just finished it today. HARD SF/NASA Conspiracy.

SirLawrence

-(when you're good)-

Yeah. I'll read it. I can't help myself.

__________________
I think my spaceship knows which way to go...
www.vinniethevole.com

Might be safe to say Norman Thomas would be rolling over in his grave...

Hehehe

__________________
I think my spaceship knows which way to go...
www.vinniethevole.com